Rustbucket

Discussion in 'Fettling Forum' started by presscall, Sep 6, 2009.

  1. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    Rustbucket III - Naked and Unadorned

    Last, in Rustbucket II - Judgement Day ...

    ... but before the 'reveal' of how the Opti 111 case emerged from the slime, let's take a look at the anode after it'd done its work. First, fresh out of the bath ...

    Pic01.jpg

    ... then after it'd dried off, 24 hours later. Compare it and the screw it was suspended from with earlier pics in 'Rustbucket II' prior to the electrolysis

    Pic02.jpg

    Ok, you've waited long enough, a set of pics of the Opti 111 case after just a light rub with wire wool, dusting off with air from a compressor and a wipe with Aspen 4T (I'd no panel wipe in stock)

    Pic03.jpg

    Pic04.jpg

    Pic05.jpg

    Notice on a tank mounting strut the 'dendritic growth' traces of rust tracks developing under otherwise good paint - I posted a shot of this very spot in 'Rustbucket II'. Now its magnetite, it's not going to corode any more

    Pic06.jpg

    More shots ...

    Pic07.jpg

    Pic08.jpg

    The hinges are in good shape ... on the flap at the front of the case ...

    Pic09.jpg

    ... and on the lid/base pan intersection

    Pic10.jpg

    Right, the search is on for the paint to finish the job. A lot has been said in CCS about how to finish an Opti 111. The search for me starts under stormy skies in Tokyo, Japan, land of some of the most desirable stove collections on earth. Surely the right paint for this Swedish classic could be found there?

    Pic11.jpg

    I make my search on foot ...

    Pic12.jpg

    ... by rickshaw

    Pic13.jpg

    ... by car

    Pic14.jpg

    ... by riverboat

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    ... and by subway

    Pic16.jpg

    ... by night

    Pic17.jpg

    ... by day in ritzy shopping zones

    Pic18.jpg

    ... and in street markets

    Pic19.jpg

    Did I find the right paint? Pilot: "Flaps ok? co-pilot: "Confirmed, ok." Me: "NRV 'pip' changed, pump leather replaced with a Sefa special, tank filler cap washer changed ..."

    Pic20.jpg

    Sorry for the prolonged outcome to this resto, but there's more to come I'm afraid ...
     
  2. Spiritburner

    Spiritburner Admin SotM Winner Subscriber

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    The transformation is remarkable! Tells us more about how it's become magnetite'd & non-corrodable - I'm intrigued!
     
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  3. shagratork

    shagratork United Kingdom Moderator, R.I.P. Subscriber

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    All good things come in at least three episodes.
    This is surely 'Lord of the Stoves'! :D :D
     
  4. fyldefox

    fyldefox R.I.P.

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    . . . or "Lord of the Stove Rings" . . .I'll get me coat :oops: ;)
     
  5. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    Hello Ross.

    What I've gleaned from highly respectable, indisputable sources like Wikipedia and Google is that the black oxide stuff the rust is replaced by is pretty stable. It would re-convert to rust if left unpainted, but unlike the red stuff, it won't degrade and erupt under the paint so easily, having more iron and less oxygen in it than the red stuff. Ok, hardly a basis for a chemistry lecture, but I'll work on it.

    Regards,

    John
     
  6. Dutchmike

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    You're doing OK on the chemistry, John. Not sure what you had in mind with the paint, though. Were you thinking of Japanning? I think Algentry has a nice specimen....Love the sequel by the way: I 'll switch on tomorrow! Regards, Mike
     
  7. brassnipplekey

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    Japan :thumbup:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyu_Hands ]Tokyu Hands :thumbup: [/url] ..
    Must be in the Top Ten 'Everything Stores' that I've been in . ... 8-[
    The 111 Restoration/Preservation is a classic 8)
    I like the bubbly bits pics :roll: ,
    Classic presentation .. of a classic stove :clap:

    The flame ring :shock: :shock: :shock:

    Nick
     
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  8. Matukat

    Matukat Subscriber

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    Well, it IS being presented by a writer... :lol: :lol:
    THAT'S for sure!!!! Nice job John, I'm hooked too, get that next episode out quick!

    I have read, (and only read) that Ford "Cosmos Blue" is the closest match, but really can't say... The transformation is remarkable so far! My first electrolysis was a "KampKook" from 1922. Came out O.K. but didn't seem to "cook" as effectively as your 111 !!!!

    Edit- by the way... that dark photo of you could be Hugh Laurie incognito.... or so it looks to me...

    Hugh Laurie for President!!!!!
     
  9. P. Lynn Miller

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    Wow! This serial is worth the subscription price to CSS alone... sitting on the edge of my seat for the next installment.

    Brilliant stuff... makes me want to see my Radius 43B refurbished... nah... then I would be afraid to use and abuse it.

    Now back to regular programming...
     
  10. Doc Mark

    Doc Mark SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Morning, John,

    Outstanding stuff, Sir, and very well presented all around!! :clap: :clap: Have you scored a new flame ring, or are you in need of that? I'm not sure I have any left in my parts stash, but if you cannot find one locally (Basecamp), I can go down into the Hobbit Hole and see what turns up. Let me know... Again, well done, and I look forward to the completion of this epic journey, and the reincarnation of our Intrepid Hero Stove, back from the depths of bubbling hell!! :shock: :thumbup: :clap: :D/ Take care, and God Bless!

    Every Good Wish,
    Doc
     
  11. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

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    Hi John, an impressive post on an interesting fettle.

    Metallurgy and Electochemistry are seldom simple:

    However, I would like to comment on your suggestion that the product on the surface of the de-rusted case is Magnetite, which you suggest offers some corrosion protection to the underlying steel.

    1. I believe you are correct in stating that the dark, or black, substance on the surface of the case after electrolysis is mainly Magnetite. This piece of good research would support your view:

    http://www.holzwerken.de/museum/links/electrolysis_explanation.phtml

    2. Alas, for Magnetite to offer any corrosion protection it has to be non-porous and firmly adherent to the underlying steel. The form of Magnetite produced on the Cathode (your steel case) in Sodium Carbonate electrolysis is a very fine powder and poorly adherent. This is because it has been produced by direct reduction of the rust previously on the surface.

    3. This means that your de-rusted case will rust again very rapidly unless you clean and dry it quickly, and then apply a good paint system, preferably including a metal primer.

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
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  12. bajabum

    bajabum R.I.P.

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    Yes, the case will 'flash rust' within minutes, so hit it with some primer ASAP !
     
  13. redspeedster

    redspeedster United Kingdom Subscriber

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    Hi
    After I cleaned my 111 case in an electrolysis bath I still had to sand blast it to get a good enough surface to prime. Mind you the sand had been through the gun a few thousand times before and was more like house dust. I warmed the case in an oven before an etch prime and a two pack paint finish, using a touch up gun to get into all the nooks and crannies. I think I'll try powder coating the next one. I didn't try and find a match to the original paint (mine was a light non-metallic blue) having a differently coloured 111 is handy at Newark. Ask Nick.
     
  14. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    INTERLUDE

    Since my coverage of the topic is pretty much in real time rather than a past event, the restoration necessarily takes a break until I get time to continue, primarily on preparation and repainting of the case.

    It's a handy opportunity for me to express my thanks for the responses I've had from all who've posted them and to answer some of the points raised, as far as I can recall them by re-reading their responses in this topic and its predecessor, 'Rustbucket II'.

    Before I get into that, for thoroughness' sake (and particularly for those contemplating tackling this sort of job for the first time) I'll cover some other aspects of the restoration.

    A soak in engine oil - old monograde in this case - for the pump cup washer

    Pic1.jpg

    Burner and other parts, excluding the pricker/rack (steel pricker wouldn't benefit from a dunk in acid solution), soak in citric acid cleaning bath. Pretty murky by the end of the soak

    Pic2.jpg

    Here are the components, part way through the process. Some would benefit from more time in the cleaner, so will get additional treatment from those already 'done'

    Pic3.jpg

    I don't usually tinker with the pressure release valve in the filler cap unless I suspect it's leaking air, but the retaining cap on this one unscrewed easily ...

    Pic4.jpg

    The cork 'pip' was ok, but mildly indented and I'll probably replace it with a nitrile disk of equivalent thickness.

    Pic5.jpg

    Nick ('brassnipplekey') suggested a trip to Tokyu Hands for my paint

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyu_Hands

    Well, I didn't get the paint there, but I couldn't leave such a brilliant store without getting something ... not sure they'll end up in a stove though

    Pic6.jpg

    Pic7.jpg

    Doc (Mark) generously offered to rummage in his famous Hobbit Hole for a burner ring for Rustbucket. Doc, a generous offer indeed, but I've other plans in mind involving this recent acquisition ...

    Pic8.jpg

    I was a kid when I last used one of these (well, not this 1930's Drummond lathe model) and never attempted metal spinning on one as opposed to turning/cutting, but I'm intent on giving it a go ...

    Paul ('111T') said in my topic 'Rustbucket II' I wonder if those stoves had a steel tank (in like condition to the rest) and not a brass one if you'd even consider working on them? I'd probably give it a go, Paul, if solely for kero (as opposed to gasoline), but only if it wasn't holed or very nearly so.

    Gordon F, also in 'Rustbucket II' was spot on with two questions I've pondered since setting eyes on the stove when he asked, How in God's name did the flame ring end up like that? It would take a determined attack with a small hammer to damage it so. Are you planning to use filler for all of the pitting on that case?
    That flame ring, eh?!!! Tell you what, Gordon, just for laughs I'll be posting a photo of it in use, irregular flame and all. Couldn't begin to fathom how on earth it got like that. The filler? I guess I will use filler, though I've only had the intention of bring this example up to 'user' spec and don't want it to shed filler and paint when it gets the odd knock in transit. Dunno, I may not, or I might use it in the worst parts. The worst part is the front flap and I might just limit it to that. As I said, I'd no intention of restoring this to concours condition, even if I had the skills!

    Kerophile and Steve ('bajabum') are right to warn me about the onset of rust on the finished surface. Though I'm short of time to do any more work on the project right now I've anticipated degeneration of the surface of the metal by keeping the case in a dry environment and will give it another vigorous rubbing down and clean before paint prep.

    ... more soon.

    Regards,

    John
     
  15. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    Good point, Gary, and thanks for the pointers on paint techniques. The kero 111 I showed a photo of alongside this one is blue and since Rustbucket was more of a green hue, I fancied returning it to as near to the original colour as I could manage. Any chance of a pic of your 111, or direct me to where it appears on CCS if you've already posted one? Painting's not my strong point and though I've got a compressor and gun, I thought I'd stick with rattle cans for this project. Thanks again for that info on the Coleman lantern and the VW connection that never was. Cheers, John
     
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  16. Confusius

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    This thread is brilliant! A thrilling mix of science and suspense. Excellent infotainment :)

    God, I love this forum :mrgreen:
     
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  17. redspeedster

    redspeedster United Kingdom Subscriber

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    John
    If you are worried about pitting showing through I would just lay on loads of primer rubbing down between coats rather than using bodge.
    If the surface is too bad for this, as you have a compressor and gun try.

    Polyester spray filler

    Funny the only pic I can find is pretty crap, but it's in this post.

    Not a 111 post.
     
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  18. presscall

    presscall United Kingdom SotM Winner SotY Winner Subscriber

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    Rustbucket - interlude - The Flame Spreader from Hell

    There's a necessary halt in my CCS topic on the Rustbucket restoration saga ...

    ... until the primer paint dries and hardens, is sanded, then follow more cycles of priming and sanding before the top coat.

    I speculated at the start of the restoration that the battered 'flame spreader from hell' would create an irregular flame pattern ... well wouldn't you agree on this evidence?

    Pic1.jpg

    Pic2.jpg

    However, I thought I'd make sure before donating it to the CCS Black Museum of unfettle-able stove parts that my hypothesis was correct. Here's the basis for the test, on the left a British Military Stove No. 12 with an Optimus burner grafted on and on the right, an Optimus 111. 'Rustbucket', now in a bilious shade of yellow primer/surfacer makes a guest appearance.

    Incidentally, Gary ('red speedster') wrote in a post to 'Rustbucket III - Naked and Unadorned' "... having a differently coloured 111 is handy"

    Prior to Gary's suggestion, 'nzmike' in a post to 'Rustbucket II - Judgement Day' wrote "Can't wait for the conclusion, hopefully with a non standard paint job..."

    Not the yellow then, guys? It's non-standard and would stand out in a crowd at stovie gatherings for sure ... nah, guess not.

    Pic3.jpg

    Ok, here's the Military No. 12 at full belt

    Pic4.jpg

    ... and here's the Optimus 111 roaring away

    Pic5.jpg

    Let's get the view at night-time, a good time to appreciate flame patterns. Mil spec stove on the left, Opti 111 stage right. First, the priming

    Pic6.jpg

    Curious, it occurs to me that since grafting the Opti 111 burner onto the Military spec no. 12 that I haven't run it at night. I mentioned in a previous post in the Rustbucket saga that I'd fitted the burner with a larger diameter spirit cup to give me assured priming in gale-force conditions. Looks to me like I've unwittingly given it a better (less carbon rich and smoky) burning characteristic during priming. It figures, more oxygen can reach the surface of the priming cup. Neat!

    Right, here are the stoves, Military no. 12 on the left, Optimus 111 kero on the right, and they're well alight. Oh, another observation. The welded stainless steel tank on the Military no. 12 encourages me to pump it that bit more than the brassie Opt 111 with soldered seams - ok, a lot more for the sake of CCS members. You can see how the flame pattern is flatter. Can't convey it in a photo, but it's more intense and hotter (by the "how near can I get before scorching my eyebrows?" un-scientific test admittedly). As I say, just for your sake you understand, and not something I'd make a habit of - honestly - but those Military No. 12's are darned good!

    PIc7.jpg

    Here's the 'Flame Spreader from Hell' on the Optimus 111

    Pic8.jpg

    ... and here it is on the No. 12

    Pic9.jpg

    Ok, I'm convinced, I need a new one!!!

    The final countdown to positively the last installment of 'Rustbucket' is ticking away - slowly, at the pace of paint drying.

    Cheers,

    John
     
  19. mbechtel

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    The flame pattern is actually better than you'd think it would be...although the spreader does looks like it's about to become molten. It kinda reminds me of the stuff you see coming down the side of a volcano. NEAT!
     
  20. gingeralenz

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    What kind of primer paint are you using? Just wondered if you're using something special because of the heat involved with stoves.