Trangia 25/27, Ethanol, and Acetaldehyde

removing copper - We remove necessary catalyst
and catalythic process will be unpossible

 

Having cleaned the outside bottoms of my pots, I am left wondering what exactly comprises the brown soot layer? I am using a Trangia burner with denatured alcohol (~90% ethanol). When I use the alcohol undiluted, I am left with a brown ring (which after repeated uses ends up coating the entire bottom) that is resistant to cleaning. The stove is apparently operating in a fuel-rich state. Incomplete combustion of the ethanol is resulting in a brown deposition layer. When I dilute the alcohol with water (e.g. 12% water by volume), the ‘sooting’ of the bottom is almost non-existent.

Whatever this layer is, it does not rub off. Nor does it easily come off when scraped with a fingernail. Using soap and water does nothing. I have had the most success using cream of tartar and hot water to remove this layer. Is it just carbon or is it something else?

 

Define "alcohol". What is it denatured with, methanol, acetone, MEK, toluene....?

The oxides and carbon residue on the pan bottom could be acting as activated charcoal, promoting the reactions, and the water would act much like a shielding gas moderating or limiting the reaction and reactants.

In any case, sounds like you're all good, having found a solution to the problem.

 

Trangia's own clever way of making your pans more heat absorbing. With the modern bio-ethanols I'm using here in the UK I'm not getting the level of automatic pan enhancement I once did.

 

Presuming "reg" shoud be "red", and granted this happened in the past, but...
the red HEET is isopropanol (which burns sooty and filthy), not methanol like the --yellow bottle-- HEET. The yellow bottle HEET works just fine in a Trangia / alcohol burner.
Red bottle heet = ISOHEET = isopropanol (ISO standing for isopropanol, go figure).
Yellow bottle HEET = methanol.
The two msds info can be found online.

Somewhat flawed testing, but you get the idea of isopropanol/rubbing alcohol vs. yellow HEET. Beginning about 3:50 you can really watch the flame differences between the red and yellow bottle fuel types.


I can't comment on any funky tastes from weird fuels, dirty pots, etc. It's been quite some time since I've used the Trangia burner to heat up anything but water for tea in my workspace.
I've been much more satisfied using a first generation Optimus Nova burning Coleman Fuel / White Gas with my Trangia cook sets, that I seldom even consider bringing the alcohol Trangia burner when I go camping or other cooking situations.

 

@SoylentPlaid
What a profoundly interesting thread you initiated. Thank you.

My compliments, not least for your courteous, reflective interaction with those who responded and the careful scientific deductive method you introduced to arrive at the eventual outcome.

I thoroughly applaud too your enthusiasm to get the most out of your food in terms of taking no second best flavour-wise 'just because it's camp cooking'. It's something I aspire to also, even if I don't always succeed.

John

 

soylentplaid :-).... that's a classic in my lil book of smealtingdowns .
.. bloody stoves .
.wtf use are they ?
the browning , rather than blackening phenomenon ? is something i've experienced with optimus trapper 81 assembly ... used as manufacturers instructions ... a ' pan browning' , rather than the more common ? sootyish (ymmv)blackening of trangia & type clone etc. burners and enclosures .
q? to myself, why using same fuel /operating back to back with trangalikes do/did the opti 81 pans stay cleaner & go brown ......?
its a chemicoheataluminelectroboundary layer transformation ..??.easy thinking =i'm cool with that ? ... i differentiate brown from black.
i'd have rather they went flat black ....but no soot .. i go black no soot rather than go brown no soot ...

new topic ... show us yer pan bottoms :-).

my current fav rav alco trangialike stove is a clas olsen assaklitt ... with the addition of a couple of ally pie trays .cheap and cheerful .
i'm safer burning alco than trying to drink it .
& all this that so early on a thurs eve .
... just checked myself for a while theree... you but know how it is ... y/n maybe ?
checked ... its thursday.
...

mostly im here for ddg xxy as fx last 2x last century camp stoves stoves ...
what colo(u)r is the effalump. ?
i smell of paraffin .

BUT...the browning pan effect of center a draught regulated burners is a i've experienced/my eyes have seen this ..
... its a layer which cant be easily ...o.k go for it..explained ???
nor scrubbed off easily ... its heatochemicoalco whateverhow it

burn safe .. black brownalco pink martins or black swan on the beach/rocks ....
have a fire extinguishier ?close by ? .
should i poll this ?
any other members experienced an outer pan browning rather than a blackening of aluminium cook kit ?.
cant say if my opti81 cookset was better/worse than others .. just know its pans went permanent brown ... not scrubby off easy black .
bstrd stoves, whoops im ont interwebbbys ..
post it .
note.. u know how it is .
no soot.. just brown .. explain ?..
when randr dont fill the room ..wheres the effalump ?
burning alco ... whowould have thought ?
Q. were mr titolandi /mr trangia teatotalists ?
ive never tasted cooking fuel in my food .. unless it was intentional...gordon bleu... he couldn't cook .
soylentplaid .. the browning of pans in certain alcoburners is v v real.i cant explain .. but have seen same...its almost like hard layer anodising .. ...
a break in process ... the more you use ,the better the assembly gets .. when acetics combine with ally ,at a certain temperature ?... = brown ?.. more brown = better heat reception ...
its not classic stoves but youve found a place to ask questions .good on ya mate,
brown pans...easier to clean than black ones .....
soylentplaid lmco.luvvitt.

Nick.

 

Good Morning, @brassnipplekey

Nick, I've most certainly experienced this "browning" phenomenon with my Opti 81 Trapper stoves, and I love it!!! I NEVER try to clean that brown pot bottom, because the brown helps the pot to distribute heat better, and the stove functions better with the brown bottom left intact.

When I first tried Meths, I guess I had a poor brand, because my Trangia 25 burner smoked, and deposited soot all over the pot bottoms! YEACH!! Now, that stuff, I cleaned off, and in a hurry. I thought all Methylated Spirits were like that, but later found that they are not. The Meths I have been using for the last many years, has been clean, and leaves no sooty deposits on the pots and pans. That's more like it!!

So, for me, the Trapper "brown" is good, whilst the crappy old Meths fuel soot, is not. Others may have varying mileage, but that's my t'uppence..... Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

It does sound like fuels available in different parts of the world are different.

Can you be a bit more specific on the bio ethanol? Thanks.

 

I suspect all ethanol is bio-ethanol. It is the non-ethanol stuff that is added that makes it non-bio (It would be nice if governments quit trying to poison us for our own good.).
Methanol, for example, is seldom made from wood any longer but from the partial oxidaion of geological methane gas (still might be bio, it seems to me).

Turns out, Bio-ethanol (in the States at least) = denatured alcohol, methylated spirit. That is according to the company that markets it.

 

I know that, and so the reduction of additives makes it bio... I mean, like, cyanide is organic, but I don't eat it..
Thanks, I did want to know what Ross is using.