Why does a roarer burner roar?

Discussion in 'Stove Forum' started by sefaudi, Dec 15, 2022.

  1. sefaudi

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2004
    Messages:
    752
    Location:
    Turkey
    Maybe an old discussion but thought re-study could be interesting.
    (History repeats itself :lol:)
     
  2. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    14,337
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
  3. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    14,337
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
  4. Blackdog

    Blackdog United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,471
    Location:
    Dreaming of snow
    ...To prove its dominance over silent burners!
     
  5. JustOneQuestion Belgium

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2022
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Belgium
    Another, related question: how can stoves be so different?

    Not everything roars the same. Recently, I started playing around a bit with my old Svea 123r. It roars, but it’s nothing compared with the Primus Multifuel I had 20 yrs. ago. That one produced an unbearable eardrum-piercing shriek, a bit like an F-104 Starfighter in low level flight, but less pleasant (I grew up not far from a military airbase).

    I sold it to a guy planning a trip in Mongolia, and bought a Trangia.
     
  6. kerophile

    kerophile United Kingdom SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    14,337
    Location:
    Far North of Scotland
    The noise output from a stove is directly related to the velocity of the fluid being burnt.

    “Silent” burners have a lower flammable fluid velocity than equivalent “roarer” burners hence the lower sound output.

    Best Regards,
    Kerophile.
     
  7. sefaudi

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2004
    Messages:
    752
    Location:
    Turkey
    Hey George,

    Thanks for the links showing previous discussions.
    But my question is not the noise level comparison. Indeed silents have some noise as well.

    But a roarer burner really roars. It is completely different from silents.
    Any idea?
     
  8. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    21,904
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I have a guess.
    It is the turbulence of the flame hitting the plate.
     
  9. gieorgijewski

    gieorgijewski Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,301
    It is dificult to me explain in english - but ill try...
    At first
    Sound is the air pressure changes in range 30 hz to 21 khz

    Sources of sounds in roarer burner
    1 nipple jet flowed gas
    2 ignition area constant explosion of gas/oxigen
    3 top of the flame or proper fluctuations on the top flame

    Frequency of sounds
    1 high circa 5 khz
    2 low circa 3 hundrets hz
    3 low circa 150 hz

    WHAT WE HEAR
    source no.3
    Why
    Power of sounds depends on pressure changes
    "There" changes are biggest
    Hard to easy say why flame is not permanently the same on every side of the burner all the time.
    But We must remember burning depends on triangle:
    Temperature -fuel - air where elents are corellated
    Thats give Us dynamic changes of flame haigh
    Extremal example of that is rocket pulsation engine
    Here We have 'compilatio a few not synchronus engins'
     
  10. itchy

    Offline
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    3,793
    Thanks @gieorgijewski I like the way you break it down to physics and physiology.
     
  11. gieorgijewski

    gieorgijewski Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,301
    Hm..
    Is the other way to solve problem and do not lost energy for nothing...
    W/o question mark...
     
  12. SoylentPlaid

    Offline
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    7
    Hola!
    The roaring is due to Kelvin-Helmoltz instability. You basically have the hot, high-velocity exhaust flowing through the cold "stationary" air. The turbulence generated at the interface produces lots of little sound sources at the vortices, thus the "roar".
     
  13. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    21,904
    Location:
    North Carolina
     
  14. Tony Press

    Tony Press Australia Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2013
    Messages:
    10,788
    Location:
    Stinkpot Bay, Howden, Tasmania, Australia
    Go to the top of the class, Ken!


    Tony
     
  15. snwcmpr

    snwcmpr SotM Winner Subscriber

    Offline
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    21,904
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Dang, lucky guess, and I end up in front of the teacher?