popped-in again. Nicola, I AM, pretty much, still back in 1908 with this topic. Re my "i'm seeing tube burner (roarer) featured in 1915 catalog" i (still) have not reviewed 1915 for that, but fwiw the 1st stoves in the catalog, No. 0 & 1 feature tube burner (roarer).
@OMC Yes, when you underlined that tube roarer was present on 1915 catalog I made some confusion in that moment. On previous posts I was saying that tube roarer wasn’t present on 1924 catalog while the tube silent was numbered 812/813, so the represented image was misleading with the conclusion that none of the tube burners were available in 1924 also if the silent was represented by illustration. So, for clarity, in 1915 the tube silent is replaced by 812/813 new burners. Tube roarer still available. Nicola
I do not have an alternative date to offer as to exactly when the iconic Svea silent tube burner ceased production, but I cannot accept that it is as clear cut and specific to 1915 as suggested here. We are severely deficient in pre-1930s coverage of Svea catalogue information. In the midst of this sparsity we do, however, have 3 documents from 1915-1916, and they do not give any clear cut answer. In fact they contradict each other. For the year 1915 itself we currently have 2 documents, a catalogue and an illustrated price list. For 1916 we have another illustrated price list. The most striking feature shared by all 3 of these is the new 111ff range of internal NRV stoves, forerunners of the post WW1 switch of the mainstay No.s 1 & 5 to internal NRV specification. But as regards the unique Svea tubular construction silent and roarer burners there is no consensus. All 3 seem to offer both roarer tube burners and roarer 'cross-burners' as alternative options for different roarer models. But when it comes to the silent burners the situation is very confusing. The 1915 catalogue shows silent tube burners in all of the relevant illustrations, but out of date illustrations frequently appear in trade catalogues, on the other hand the spare parts list refers only to conventional, not tube, silent burners numbered 812 & 813 and accompanied by correct illustrations of those types. In contradiction to this catalogue, however, the separate 1915 price list only features and illustrates the no.s 803 & 804 tube silent burners. The 1916 price list similarly only appears to offer the no.s 803 & 804 tube silent burners. It is possible that, given the known severe cut backs in Swedish stove production during WW1, one explanation could simply be fluctuations of batches of parts availability. Overall, however, there is certainly no obvious abandonment of one format of silent burner in favour of another. The even more confusing 1924 catalogue, which uses silent tube burner illustrations accompanied by conventional silent burner numbering does not help to resolve this puzzle.
Thanks all, Ian for explanation, well worded ... i'll copy-paste --> " [ exactly ] when the iconic Svea silent tube burner ceased production " I was going to reply to Nicola, and still relevant, what were last models & approx. year that the tube burner was standard, for a model, is different (maybe easier question)... tube burner (silent) and tube burner (roarer). Replacement burners/parts although definitely on-topic is slightly different context/focus. Last entry for ea, of tube burner is of interest as well (of course). fwiw, work time is shooting up, hobby time going down. Seriously I've just got through 1908, i'm reviewing related details. I'll get to 1930 and if ya'll haven't already finished by then my interest, on top of tube burners, will also be what details (tank focus) indicate earliest models.
@igh371 Hi Ian thanks for your post. For the 1915 you were linking to Brochure 120 and Catalog 26, one of the two links goes to the 1916 price list. Then you wrongly referred to 803/804 instead of 804/805. I underline this for readers, is just an error when you where creating the post We don’t want to cut the 804/805 tube silent in any specific year, but follow my thoughts here. If we need to base the theories only on pure facts I don’t think we will ever have an answer, but if we travel back in time with our imagination, probably we can find some close to possible answers. I have an IT background so I am enjoying using logic and debugging Svea information: 1: we live in the era of computers and internet, digital graphics and typography changed this sector drastically. Today we edit and update informations and images in seconds and we deliver the updated information instantly to the whole world. 2: in the early 900, typography and illustration still were a work of art. Hand made illustration and page composition, traditional mechanical printing, distribution of printed copies by road or rail. At that time everything was 100 times more complicated. 3: I have worked for some years for the production of some printed city tourist guides and I can assure you that also if we were checking 100 times before printing, once printed the thousands copies many new errors were emerging magically… but once printed they were delivered anyway. Ok, now let’s go to the point: 1: 1915 Catalog 26 is what looks to be a Swedish official catalog by Svea 2: The 1916 price list is a small translated price list probably for UK 3: I consider the Catalog 26 a more credible piece of information 4: On 1915 catalog 26 all the images of the 804/805 silent burner by itself are updated with 812/813 images, so the tube burner images are completely removed and updated in every page: 5: You will tell me now that on the same catalog 804/805 tube silent burner is still visible on the illustrations of the whole stoves! Yes, but once you have updated all the specific burner images to the 812/813 model, once all the parts numbers are updated, why hire again the illustrator to recreate the hand made illustrations for all the models if the burners are not really visible on the majority of them? So here is the answer. 5: 1915 Svea Brochure 120 is a nice piece of information, an English translated brochure for outside Sweden, 804/805 tube burner still present. Now if this brochure is from 1915 and not a translation maybe of a little earlier document, it means that during 1915 someone at Svea told to someone else: “Hey! Call the typography and tell them that we need to replace those damn 804/805 burner images right now because we don’t produce it anymore! On the table there are the illustrations of the new 812/813 burner, so take them and go right now to the typography so they can make the new composition asap!” Ahahah fun but realistic! So, in the end, why after all this logical thinking we cannot say that 1915 is the last year for 804/805 tube silent burner? From my previous research here in the gallery and also on old eBay listings all the examples of tube 804/805 are found on stoves with Cyrillic text on the side. The Cyrillic text is found also in combination with 812/813 new burner as seen on model 115 here. Burner 813 is found here on some model 14 here, some of them without Cyrillic text. So Cyrillic text identifies very early stoves up to post 1915. Probably Cyrillic text didn’t last up to 1920. For roarer tube burner 800/801 we know that still were available on this important Catalog 26 from 1915. Not having another catalog of the next close years we can’t say when it exactly disappeared, so we need to wait a new catalog that gives us the chance to make a deduction as I made for 804/805 burners in this post. Nicola EDIT If all this is true, the 1924 Italian catalog images are poorly attendibile.
Additionally, Primus was using the equivalent of the 812/813 burner already many years before 1915. So it’s reasonable to think that Svea updated its silent burner in 1915 to the Primus style one that must have been easier and more convenient to produce. Nicola
Found this by @kerophile : So my question is: A company like Svea would have delivered stoves with an outdated Russian text? They were proud of their best in the world stoves, so maybe they wouldn’t have ignored a change in Russian language. So, is reasonable to date the stoves with Russian side text as pre 1917? If this is true, I have my observation that all the tube silent 804/805 are found only on tanks with Russian text confirmed and realistic, if we consider the 1915 as the last year for 804/805. By checking the models with post 1915 812/813 burners, I have found a model 14 with 813 burner that doesn’t have the Russian text, so is possible to think that after 1917 this text was removed and not updated. Nicola
On this example of model 14 with 813 burner Svea No. 14 we don’t have the Russian text on the side where it should be: While on this 14 with 813 burner SVEA no.14 stove we found the Russian text also if the photo is dark: So this last example could be dated between 1915 and 1917, from the first day of 813 burner and the last day of Russian text. The first example post 1917. Nicola
Hi @Nicola Francesco Elia . Unfortunately it appears that the Swedish Stove manufacturers did not adopt the new orthography declared by the Russians with any urgency so one would be unwise to use Cyrillic script as a dating clue. Primus continued to use the old script on their stoves until at least 1935... Cyrillic Lettering on Swedish stoves, Best Regards, Kerophile.
@kerophile Ok thanks for this information. So I need to find another way to set an end date for the Russian side text on Svea Models. But in any case it shouldn’t have lasted much later than 1920 considering the model 14 with 813 burner that doesn’t have that text. Nicola
Ok, let’s go back to this 1 star Svea No 1* that, together with model 14 above, has the early days look and feel, but without Russian text: On 1924 Italian catalog/brochure it was defined NEW MODEL, so for now the Russian text is pre 1924. Nicola
By looking to the air release key on quoted Svea 16 above I dated external pump valve up to 1934 (French catalog). The 16 above has starburst sievert logo, so earlier than this example of @kerophile Svea No:16 1930s with the new Svea shield king of stoves logo but still with external pump valve. So external pump still present on this 16 that should be dated post 1934 up to late ‘30s. Seems that the models 15 and 16 lasted up to late 30s exactly as models offering external pump valve as feature. Nicola
all, Nicola, I am thankful for all. my non-response is due to workload, I have plenty compliment-comments and reply-rebuttal. I do want to insert this relevant dating tidbit, the credit goes to @presscall i will follow up as limited time allows (involves back-track, sorry, i've not passed 1915), thanks again, carry on
@OMC Hi, thanks. Yes tube silent burners 804/805 are available since beginning to 1915 catalog 26. Nicola
Spirit caps, additionally, with pump rods and bottom tank markings are the only details that can give a clue regarding dating pre 1915 stoves. I will focus on these other details later. Nicola
Let’s look at spirit cups: 1908 catalog, same cup for all the models, small, medium and big for the bigger Svea 2. On Catalog 26 1915, we have two style of cups, one with auto igniter and one without. The one without igniter was dedicated for all the roarer models and for the bigger Svea 2: On 1911 and 1913 prints we have an illustration of the cup with auto igniter: 1911: 1913: So, in conclusion, for the information we have here, all early models with silent tube burner 804/805 that have cup with auto igniter are datable from 1911 to 1915. Models with tube burner 804/805 and original cup without auto igniter are pre 1911. For models with roarer burners the thing is more complicated, it seems that they’ve never been equipped with auto igniter. Anyway we need to understand if cups from 1908 were different than the ones of let’s say 1911, year when we first see the cups with auto igniter. Nicola
@igh371 Ian this is all for you, my 111! I know you will hate me soon or later My 111 is for me an oddity, it could be revealing or confusing, so let’s see where we go. It doesn’t have burner because was a Switmus, but the rest is all original as found. Photos: Ok let’s see the oddities: 1: Filler cap, ok, we have seen it on 115 but it’s a little different… not an oddity 2: is the first and only early Svea stove I know with the Russian text below filler cap and next to pump… this is an oddity 3: pump cap Made in Sweden but early pump system… oddity 4: no other side text! Where the side text that we always find on early Svea stove below filler is gone? This is the text I am talking about on Svea 15 as example: So the presence of the only Russian text on a different location if compared to other stoves and the absence of the other well known side text what should suggest to us? Are these oddities revealing or more confusing? Nicola
Ok, following my 111, this no 10 doesn’t have any side text on tank… and for now is the only one of the early models without any text on tank sides. Patent Svea No.10 What I want to understand is if the presence or not of side texts could give us a date indication. Nicola
